Up from the Muck Podcast
Up from the Muck Podcast seeks to provide encouraging interviews of Christian believers, showcasing their “stories of the middle”, the mucky moments where God steps in, highlighting the gritty middle and not just the polished end.
Up from the Muck Podcast
When Your Chapter Isn't Your Story with Joanna Herman
Joanna Herman shares her journey through divorce after seven years of marriage and how she discovered that her circumstances don't define who she is in God's eyes.
• Facing fears of financial insecurity, loneliness, and judgment as a worship leader going through divorce
• Battling shame and the feeling that divorce "wasn't supposed to happen" to her despite doing things "the right way"
• Finding hope by realizing this difficult period was just a chapter, not her entire story
• Clinging to Isaiah 43:2 as a reminder of God's presence during deep waters
• Drawing strength from her mother's example as a single parent and supportive community
• Discovering deeper worship connection through her pain and healing journey
• Learning to combat negative thoughts with truth about her identity in Christ
• Recognizing how God strategically placed supportive people in her life before her crisis
"Find yourself a godly community to surround yourself with who's going to be there to celebrate those mountaintops and pray you through the valleys... just because life may not always be going good, we still serve a good God."
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today I'm going to be talking with joanna herman hey y'all. Hey, she is a local teacher here in washington, parish. She attends first west, where joanna is part of the worship team and choir. She also helps out with the women's retreat in our area that really deal with a lot of different churches, not just one church. But yeah, she's on the helping team too, so she is a big helper, helping person.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love to help all the way. Yeah, busy little bee, and you work with little ones too. Is that the age range you work with?
Speaker 2:Yes, I actually teach pre-K. Yeah, when people tell me that I'm like their, their response is either oh my gosh, you must love it, or oh my gosh, I don't see how you do it. So it's one or the other.
Speaker 1:Well, I have a person that's going to be a pre-Ker, so I feel like I'm right there with you. I mean, I don't know, it's an interesting age. They definitely keep you on your toes. Yes, yes, lots of learning, but I'm so glad that we're finally able to meet. We've been trying to have this conversation a few times, but just life events been getting in the way, but I'm glad we're finally here to do it.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm excited. Thank you for asking me. You know it's going to work out when it's supposed to work out and I'm just excited to be here today and make it happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, All right, so tell us, where does your story begin?
Speaker 2:So my event that we're going to talk about today happened back in 2022, when my husband and I decided to separate after seven years of marriage, and I was 37 at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm about that age right now. So, oh, caleb and I, we've almost it's almost seven years, so I feel like I'm right where you were those years ago. So, man, what were some things that weighed you down like during that time?
Speaker 2:the unknown, just because I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen in my marriage. Like I said, we were separated at the time and trying to kind of figure out, you know, what our next step was going to be, if we were going to be able to work this out or if we were going to end up in a divorce. If we did end up divorced, you know, as a single person it's like you know am I going to be able to support myself? You know that was definitely a scary thing to think about financially.
Speaker 2:You know, that was definitely a scary thing to think about financially. Where am I going to live? Thankfully my parents live close. I'm sure maybe they wouldn't have minded if I stayed with them for a little bit, but thankfully it didn't come to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was also kind of worried about how I was going to handle being alone again. We had been married for seven years. We had dated two years before that, so we had been together almost 10 years at that point. So just being on my own again, you know, I didn't know how I was going to handle that. And then, you know, to being able to wonder if I was going to find somebody to love me this late in life because you know I'm pushing 40. Yeah, yeah. So I do know it's cool that and I just wasn't sure you know what that was going to look like for me. So there was a lot of fear of the unknown. I had a lot of fear of judgment from others. You know, I just wasn't sure. Serving on the worship team and in the choir, you know what people would think. As a divorced person, you know, sometimes I feel like and it's probably not anything that they're putting on me. It's what I put on myself.
Speaker 1:I just wasn't sure what other people were going to think about me and if I was going to be less qualified to do that because of being divorced now had you always been on like on the worship team, because I know you, born and raised at our church I did first, but I don't know if you had. You know you and your husband went to a different church for a time and then came back to it right, so every church've gone to, because I've gone to a few since I graduated high school and I left First West.
Speaker 2:I have served on the worship team at some point Okay.
Speaker 1:So yeah, well, I mean definitely qualified. I mean you have a great voice because I'm in the choir as well. But me and a few others were like we try to get next to Joanna because we know Joanna's on key and in the right spot, and we're like we don't know, and we know you do.
Speaker 2:Well, it's always been something I've loved to do, whether it be leading or singing in the choir. I mean, I've grown up singing. I sang in the kids choir first when I was in elementary school, so that's really always been a passion of mine. But, like I said, I just wasn't sure. You know how people would if they would see me differently. You know, being in that position, I ended up being divorced and then I also dealt with a lot of shame because obviously spoiler alert we did end up getting divorced and I was just really cautious to who I shared that information with, because I didn't want everybody to know what was going on and I also felt like, you know, this kind of wasn't supposed to happen to me, and so you know it was just like I mean I don't think we get married thinking that's going to happen, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:That's like the last thing you're like. This is never going to happen to me, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Like, for sure, we never went into that process together thinking that was how it was going to be, but for us it did. But yeah, I mean, it was just kind of one of those things and it's not something fun to talk about, you know. So I just kind of kept it to myself, like I said, other than like a few trusted friends and obviously our families knew Right. But once again, like I just didn't want people to think of me a certain way, you know, because yeah, so yeah, yeah, so it was like the toughest part to process.
Speaker 1:I mean that's a lot, you know. I mean you shared a life with somebody for almost 10 years. That's a lot of things that have happened and not all of them are bad, right, exactly, you know. And so it's like it's just a lot. And then the things you just talked about are things not even related to the marriage.
Speaker 2:Right, right, it's the absolute. Yeah, and that was the hard part, like you said, for a long time, because we were together for 10 years and it wasn't all bad. You know, there were a lot of good times in that time and you've gotten used to sharing your life with this person and then, all of a sudden, they're not there. So, and not only are they not there, but the family yeah, like I had the best in-laws I still love them to this day and so, you know, it was just a lot of things like that that you envisioned your life being, and all of a sudden it changed. We didn't have kids, but, like I said, it's just. You saw your life go in one place and end up somewhere totally different.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, that was really hard to process through just the new reality of what my life was going to be. And then, like we said, I carried around a lot of shame and disappointment because I felt like I had done things the right way, or so I thought, just to make the marriage last. You know, when I was in my 20s and I didn't date a lot of people because I was very selective and I have, I feel like, very high standards. People will judge you for that, but I feel like that's where my standards need to be for myself. And then we'd also met at a young adult ministry at the church we attended at the time. We went to church together, and so for me I felt like I had done everything to make sure like this marriage lasted. But the thing is is those are my standards, those weren't God's standards.
Speaker 2:So, I think that's part of it, too, is those are my standards. Those weren't God's standards. So I think that's part of it, too, is maybe it was how I needed to prepare, in my way, but not in His. And then, you know, my parents got divorced when I was in first grade and while they had a great co-parenting relationship that I'm super thankful for, it was something that I promised myself that I would never go through a divorce, no matter how long I'd waited to find that person, because I felt like I didn't want to have to go through what they went through, even though we were young at that time, like we don't really remember a whole lot of it. And, like I said, I don't think it was a bad relationship. It just didn't work. But it was just something I thought I was protecting myself from going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the shame. And came from a lot of worrying about, like I said, what others were going to think of me, because I felt like I was the last person they probably would have expected this to happen to. And, like I said, I've kept that kind of close to myself because, you know, like I said, it's not the best thing to talk about. You don't want everybody knowing about your business. You want to share the social media yeah, the highlight reel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't want to share the bad stuff that's going on, so I think some people were kind of surprised, you know, when everything kind of happened. Yeah, it was just. Yeah, it was a lot to go through at the time, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I know for myself, like some of these words you're saying, I'm like, oh, those are, oh, it hit me, but they're hitting me for, like different areas of my life, because I've had some of the same thoughts where I thought I could secure it myself and then life told me, no, you don't actually have control over that. And it was very hard to handle that, knowing that there was nothing that I could do to secure the outcome I wanted Exactly. Yeah, because that's what you were saying. Oh, that's really triggering because, like, that's exactly that whole spiel. That's how I felt, but a totally different category.
Speaker 2:So that's the crazy part about life. I feel like this situation can be in so many different parts and, like you said, like we want to control things and it to go a certain way, and so it's really difficult, I feel like sometimes just to let go but realize the way that you wanted it to be might not be the best way. That's kind of what I had to see through that.
Speaker 1:Well, and you were mentioning just a minute ago like you had high standards, but it wasn't necessarily God's standard, right, and so just having like, oh, like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna actually ask god what he thinks about the situation and let him pilot that, and my, my thing, I didn't do that right and I'm like you know, we, we think we know best and that's not always the case.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it wasn't.
Speaker 1:Uh, they're not even bad things, like you know, your marriage and having a good spouse, and all don't know. They're not even bad things, like you know, your marriage and having a good spouse and all those kinds of things. Those are not bad things. That you were, you know, wanting for yourself and for me, and not the thing that I was doing wasn't like bad things or whatever, but like it's always important to you know, talk with the big man first. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Lord when you don't it can be very difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but back to your story. You know when were things finalized, because a minute ago you said like that was in 20.
Speaker 2:Right, so we separated in October 22. Yeah, and then our divorce was finalized in May of 2023, because we didn't have any kids, we did not have any kind of property or anything together. We were renting at the time. Okay, and then we didn't have a covenant marriage, and so ours only took six months. Once we were separated for a full six months. Yeah, because now for some other like, it's really long.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah. So I was kind of thankful that it was, you know, know, it was an amicable split. I mean, we're we're still cordial together to this day, but I was thankful that it was just a quick process and you know just, cutting the cord a little bit, yeah, moving forward, yes, all right.
Speaker 1:So you know what was your turning point in all of this, because you know you mentioned basically having to deal with a humbling episode in your life and reevaluate, and just figuring out how to move forward.
Speaker 2:So my hope came from the fact that I had to remind myself that this was just a chapter and not a story, and it was not going to last forever. And I think the most important thing I learned was I'm not defined by my circumstances. Just because I am divorced doesn't disqualify me from anything that God has for me. And then, what encouraged me was to keep pressing on, because I knew that, while this might be hard and difficult for a time just to go through, I would be stronger in my faith on the other side, and God was the only one who could truly heal me during this time and heal my heart in the way that only he could.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love the choice of words where, where you know it's just just a part of your story. Um, again, like I really identify with that. It's like you're like you're touching on me here, and because I've had some things in my life as well where I'm like that's a blemish, yeah, I would rather people not know about that, or or does this disqualify me from doing anything? And I've had to go through a similar reckoning of like no, you know, only God can really define who I am Exactly. And that is just a chapter, you know, not the whole of me. And I feel like we have to look that way.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes about our Bible characters. You know what, if we just knew of Moses as the murderer, right, but we don't. That's not. That's like one chapter of his life that I'm sure he regretted, but that's not the whole of him For sure. And so I think that's an important thing for us to remember about ourselves and that's how God sees us too. He's not like, oh, joanna, that one time in first grade, or that one time when you were 37, or that one time. He doesn't hold it, he doesn't, he doesn't do that. Yeah, he doesn't do that. He looks at the whole of us and loves us in that way, and so I think it's important that we love ourselves in that way, and I think that's we don't always do that no, absolutely, or to others we don't do that, but we should because that's how God loves us. So, yeah, were there any other like Bible verses or songs or just people that influenced you and helped you out also during that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one Bible verse that I clung to during this season a lot was Isaiah 43, 2. And it was when you go through deep waters, I will be with you. When you go through rivers of difficulty, you will not drown. And when you walk through the fire of oppression, you will not be burned up and the flames will not consume you Because, like I said, anytime you're going through a difficult time, whether it be something like divorce or, you know, it can be addiction, it can be all the things. I mean we have so many things in this world right now that can hinder us down. It's just a comfort for me at that time to know that he is always with me when I go through these things, because it can be, like I said, a very lonely time, but to know you know that he is with us and he will see us through those times was definitely something I had to cling to.
Speaker 2:As far as songs, oh my gosh, I could go on and on about worship songs. Well, you're a singer, so, yeah, girl, this worship music. I tell you what has done a story in my life. One that spoke to me specifically was Believe for it by CeCe Winans during this time, because I had gone to First West I was visiting at the time when I was kind of staying with my parents, some, and they had a group from Mobile, alabama. Come, I remember them. Ooh girl, love them. Yes, well, they sang Believe for it. I had never heard this song before, but I tell you I had tears streaming down my face and I normally don't like have that reaction during a worship time, but it was, I think, just what I was going through at that time and they were singing these words and when it's saying, you know, you said it, I believe it, you said it, it is done, it was kind of just like you know. I'm just giving this to you, god, because, like I've said earlier, what I might want to have happen, which is obviously for my marriage to be restored, you might not want that and I had to trust that that my will is not your will and your will is better than mine. So that was really, oh my gosh, one of the songs still to this day. I can hardly listen to it when we sing it at church without crying, just because of the truth that it spoke to me during that time.
Speaker 2:And then, as far as the people that have influenced me, my mom is a big one.
Speaker 2:I'm going to try and get through this without crying, because I just love my mom, and if you don't have a praying mom, oh my goodness, you got to find you one, even if it's an adopted mom, like find you a praying mom. She was a huge influence on me during this time, more than she already had been, because I was going through this, but she was kind of being able to help me navigate through that time because she had walked in my shoes before. Now, granted, she had my sister and I, so she's a single parent, but no matter what life might have been like during that time for her, she was always a positive light for myself and my sister and showed us how, with God's help, he was all that we needed, and so my mom has had a huge impact on me, and so not just my mom but my family was also very supportive during that time. Yeah, because sometimes they're not, they're not and they might not understand the situation, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so sometimes you know the people you need it from the most don't always, so I'm glad that you know my family was supportive of me, checked up on me a lot.
Speaker 2:They were just like are you doing? Okay, I'm good? I mean you know, and we can kind of talk about that. But I mean that's just I think they were just kind of surprised at how well I was kind of working through things, because I mean, obviously it was a difficult time but I had a lot of support, not just from them. You know, another group I had were my group of ladies from Bible study and they were just a positive light to be with during that time and I cannot express how important it is to have godly relationships and people who lift you up during the good times but also during the difficult times and be praying for you during that it was kind of crazy.
Speaker 2:I felt like in the start of 2023, I started reconnecting with some old friends, whether it be high school or just church, and it was almost like he was preparing me by giving me the people he was placing in my life during that time, because he knew what was coming. And I mean, I had, like I said, I had so many people. My mom had people praying for me that I know had prayed for me. We had a choir rehearsal and a few months later, after everything had happened, they were being like you know, we've been praying for you and I was just like I didn't even know. You knew, yeah, but you know, and that didn't matter at the fact that they knew, because the point of that was was I had people praying for me that I didn't even know were praying for right. So I definitely feel like those godly friendships and relationships around you are very impactful during those times yeah, and with your mom like being that you know you're an adult now.
Speaker 1:Did it make you see her in the situation any different, or was it all just adding just?
Speaker 2:adding to matter more than all. Yeah, she is literally the absolute best. If you don't know my mom, you're missing out. She's a great person, but yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:She had that good candy at trick-or-treating for Halloween.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, good candy. If you've ever had her chocolate chip cookies, they are world famous. But I just had more even respect for her to go through, gone through it as myself. She had Jenny and I to worry about, you know, and I mean, like I said, I don't think we could have had a better role model for us as a single parent than we did her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what were some of the things that have made it hard to move forward? So we had these, all these great things that did help you, but what were the hard things as boulders?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Like I've said, the shame was really hard to deal with because I was keeping it close to myself and not really sharing a lot of what was going on with people around me. I mean, you know, like I said, I had my family, but even then I don't think I told them some of the true feelings that I was feeling because, like I said, you know it's not a fun thing to talk about and you, like I said, you just don't want people judging you. So the shame and the guilt, to a certain extent, was a lot of the things that I really had to struggle with in order to keep going yeah, you know it.
Speaker 1:I just feel and this is just. You know from my own life experiences that shame and guilt, those two emotions, are emotions that we're not really supposed to be carrying around with us. I mean, god created all emotions, you know, and I feel like shame and guilt can be something that can be used to help convict us for repentance, but they're not things we're supposed to live with. I don't think and I've come to the opinion, very big opinion I could be wrong, but that those are things when people are start living in that, like living in shame and living in guilt. That's not a god, absolutely my god doesn't, has not created us to live in that. That's not the relationship he has with us. So, like he doesn't hold it, hold his thumb over us and say you, dirty sinner, for sure, like he doesn't, that's not the relationship he emodes for us.
Speaker 1:You know, so I, I don't know, so I say all that because I know for that time, you know, and I've been in a situation where it's like, oh, you know, it's something to recognize and know that's not something we should be living in, exactly Like knowing that that's not God, not staying in it for sure. Yeah, look for those lights that you had, yes, and hold on to those to pull you out of that, because that's not true. Yes, I think it's very easy for us, like people who have I say us people have had life trauma. Have you had life trauma? Yeah, have I? Yes, we've had life trauma. I think it's easy to get stuck in thinking that that's OK or that's how it should be, or stay in that cave or whatever pit of that, and it's not.
Speaker 2:No, and I definitely feel, like you kind of said, I feel like that's part of the enemy's tactics. Yeah, when we feel that way, we are probably going to be very close off to other people. We're giving our things to ourselves, and when we do that, we're not allowing others to pour in and minister to us. Yeah, so I feel like that is definitely like a tool that the enemy uses against us Because, like you said, yes, yes, we are created to feel these things, but we're not created to live in these things. Yeah, so definitely, I feel like that's a struggle for a lot of people is releasing those feelings and not living in them. For sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I just think it's important you start feeling yourself doing that to know, oh wait, stop right, start calling, calling out to those other people that you know, or getting in scripture or whatever you know to do to get out of that. But for you, what was like? You know? Have you overcome it? You know anything like a capstone for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I just had to start reminding myself that my circumstances don't define who I am, that he does, and I would just have to have times when those thoughts would come into my head and I would just have to combat them with who he says I am, whether it be I am his, I'm forgiven, I'm his daughter, I'm worthy of his love. And just reminding myself that I'm who he says I am and not who this world or my circumstance say that I am yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's important, you know it is. Some people call that positive self-talk. This is the world Right, positive self-talk, right. But I think it's more like no, you're having a God talk. It's more like some true self-talk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:Let's rebrand that. Yes, yeah, yeah. So did you ever feel that God was speaking to you directly? I mean, I think you mentioned with the Mobile Alabama group.
Speaker 2:But were there other times where you're was real, like he was really speaking to you, and how did you know that it was God? Yeah, so I definitely felt like God was speaking to me during that time by placing people in my life that I could feel open and honest with about what I was going through. But the great thing about those people that were coming into my life was each of them was also reminding me that the shame I felt was the enemy putting that on me to suppress me, yeah, but that there was freedom in knowing that that was never a burden, kind of like we talked about that we were never meant to carry, yeah, and to remind ourselves that I'm his and he says I'm his, yeah, so I mean I feel like, once again, like having people speak those words of wisdom and truth into me was a big thing. And then I also feel like God definitely, like I said from my situation spoke to me through worship. He was speaking to me as far as the songs, and then I just feel like my self of worship has totally changed within the last two years.
Speaker 2:I'm just taking the words in the songs and actually being able to apply them to my life. Yeah, you know, whether it be telling him, you know how thankful we are or thankful for his promises. There are so many amazing worship songs that are going on right now. Yeah, but just taking those words to heart and it just being a moment between me and God, and it's crazy because I feel like within the last few months, especially when I am leading, people are coming to me now and they're saying you know, you can see the changes that he's made in you and I think that's very impactful, you know, because it's not just how you're sounding, it's the fact that people can actually see him working in your life by how you're worshiping. So, so, definitely the worship part as well, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know that that had all been a very bitter season. You know, some people would even call it like a winter time, emotionally, relationally, spiritually even. What did you learn ultimately about God during that time, Like was there any fruit that you feel had blossomed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I learned that God loves me despite my circumstances, and that he defines who I am, not my circumstances. He's a loving God that only wants the best for us, even when it's hard for us to understand why things happen a certain way that we wouldn't have wanted for ourselves. Because, like I said earlier, you know, I was praying that my marriage would be restored. Yeah, that's not obviously what happened, but at the same time, now that I'm on this side of it, I'm so thankful that I trusted what I felt like was His will in this situation, because I don't think I would be where I'm at today had that not happened. Yeah, so I'm definitely thankful for that. And I felt like I've grown so much in my faith and dependency on God in this season, because a lot of times, that was all I had when I went home, because it was just me. Yeah, I don't have any pets, I don't have any kids. It's just me and God in the quiet. So I was thankful for that time just to find rest in him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a real important season, and then I really feel like I've learned what it truly means to trust and depend on him. Even we can't see the bigger picture of what's ahead Because, like I said, you know, when all this was happening, I was really struggling with the unknown. Because I'm a teacher, I'm a planner, yeah, I like to know what's coming. We have to do that, and the fact that I didn't know what it was going to look like was very terrifying, but I just had. They're like, joanna, I'm going through a divorce.
Speaker 1:What do I do? Or even I'm going through this big life trauma. Yeah, what do I do? You know, what would you say to them?
Speaker 2:The first thing I would tell them is to find yourself a godly community to surround yourself with who's going to be there to celebrate those mountaintops and pray you through the valleys, because we all have things we go through, but the thing is is it's a whole lot harder to go through those things alone versus when you have people that are going to be there to lift you up whenever you are going through those difficult times.
Speaker 2:So I would definitely say, to find you a Gala community would be a big thing, and just to remember that we serve a loving God who sees us as he created us and not how the world sees us during whatever situation we may be going through, because it's not always divorce Mine was divorce, but I mean it could be addiction, it could be gambling, I mean there are so many different things that we go through right now.
Speaker 2:So just to remember that, just because life may not always be going good, we still serve a good God, yes, and to just be doing plan for our lives, I'm so thankful that, despite whatever circumstances we're going on in life, he never changes. Yeah, definitely, I think that's a big thing, and then these situations that we go through can turn into a testimony of his goodness and faithfulness to share with others. I never thought I would be in this situation sharing about divorce, but here I am my story and how his goodness and faithfulness and his promises brought me through my time, and I hope that that's been impactful to others, whether it be whatever situation they're going through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Well, I definitely think you know, by you sharing your story is definitely magnifying how good he is, and that's part of why I do what I do, because I know part of my mission really is to flood the Internet, flood, flood the interwebs and the radio space with God's goodness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when he does, we do a great job. You're doing a great job. I've loved all the other episodes I've gotten to listen to, so if y'all haven't listened yet, go back and listen to some.
Speaker 1:I do have a treasure trove. They are to me. I really do treasure every conversation I get to have. But, joanna, I'm just so thankful that we finally got to do this and I'm so glad you got to come out. I know what you shared today wasn't always fun, but I really do think that's been impactful for somebody and just thank you for coming out and sharing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me. I've really appreciated you just allowing me this venue to share my story and hopefully, like I said, this is not glorifying me or anything that I've done, but glorifying God and the way he's worked through my life. So I'm really glad I got to share this today. My name is Joanna and this is the story of the middle.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, brandi Bostic, and you've been listening to the Up for the Mutt podcast For merch or more uplifting stories, please visit my website upforthemuttcom.
Speaker 2:Psalms 40, verse 2. He brought me up from the desolate pit, out of the muddy clay, and set my feet on the rock, making my steps secure. Thank you.
